Splines?

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GWtaylor

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  • Name: Gary Taylor
Splines?
« on: May 01, 2012, 05:18:36 PM »
Got a Defender 90 1988 and got hold of a 300tdi disco and was going to swap the rear axle but somebody said the it's got more splines on?
what do they mean and will it fit my 90?

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diesel jock

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Re: Splines?
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 06:36:33 PM »
Hi mate older defenders had 10 spline diffs newer ones have 24 splines but physically the outside is much the same except your new axle will have disc brakes,common conversion

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robertspark

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  • Name: Rob
Re: Splines?
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2012, 08:41:26 PM »
This may be of use to someone....

The spline count relates to the differential end of the driveshafts.

Most of the older defender axles (pre-300TDI as far as I am aware) are 10 spline.

Some diesel defenders do have HD (Heavy Duty) axles, and as fas as I am aware all v8 defenders have HD (Heavy Duty) axles, these axles have 24 spline differentials + halfshafts.

The differentials (again as far as I am aware) on the 10 spline axles are called "2 pin" differentials (they actually have a single pin, with two planet gears)  these differentials seem to be classified as quite weak.

The differentials on the 24 spline axles are called "4 pin) differentials (they have two pins in a cross formation, with four planet gears) therefore being a stronger differential.

The 24 spline axles (drive shafts) are also stronger (can handle more torque) because the splines are finer and are able to spread the load being exerted on them (surface area because of the pressure angle provided by each spline).

One thing to watch is that newer axles tend to have a smaller driving member (thinner), I am not aware of any issues, but in my opinion this would lead to smaller surface area being in contact between the drive shafts & driving members and would also mean that over time the thinner driving member halfshafts will show more wear (this may be a reason why some vehicles have driveshafts with integral driving members).

One advantage of being lucky enough to have a HD axle is that it can be converted to disk brakes (no you do not have to have a salisbury axle) but because the stub axles are the same stub axles as the salisbury drum brake axle, you can use the well known caliper conversion to convert these axles to disks.

The use of 24 spline axles is all a question of why you need to change them??

If you are going through diffs, then it may be a good idea + look at diff pinning at the same time or a limited slip differential (LSD).

If you want disk brakes then again it may be a quick + cheap route, note you may need to change the brake bias valve (PCV = Proportional Control Valve) as this would mean that the vehicle brake dynamics will be very similar to what LR did with the newer vehicles.  I think you will need to source a PCV / bias valve off a similar vehicle (i.e. off a 110 or 90 if that is the vehicle you are putting the axle on) because the braking weights are different.  If you leave the drum brake PCV then I think your braking will be affected.

Please note, all of the above may just be my ramblings.... do as you see fit, and I am sure that I may have got something wrong in the above explanation.

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Sooty

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  • Name: mike robertson
Re: Splines?
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2012, 10:12:38 PM »
This may be of use to someone....

The spline count relates to the differential end of the driveshafts.

Most of the older defender axles (pre-300TDI as far as I am aware) are 10 spline.

Some diesel defenders do have HD (Heavy Duty) axles, and as fas as I am aware all v8 defenders have HD (Heavy Duty) axles, these axles have 24 spline differentials + halfshafts.

The differentials (again as far as I am aware) on the 10 spline axles are called "2 pin" differentials (they actually have a single pin, with two planet gears)  these differentials seem to be classified as quite weak.

The differentials on the 24 spline axles are called "4 pin) differentials (they have two pins in a cross formation, with four planet gears) therefore being a stronger differential.

The 24 spline axles (drive shafts) are also stronger (can handle more torque) because the splines are finer and are able to spread the load being exerted on them (surface area because of the pressure angle provided by each spline).

One thing to watch is that newer axles tend to have a smaller driving member (thinner), I am not aware of any issues, but in my opinion this would lead to smaller surface area being in contact between the drive shafts & driving members and would also mean that over time the thinner driving member halfshafts will show more wear (this may be a reason why some vehicles have driveshafts with integral driving members).

One advantage of being lucky enough to have a HD axle is that it can be converted to disk brakes (no you do not have to have a salisbury axle) but because the stub axles are the same stub axles as the salisbury drum brake axle, you can use the well known caliper conversion to convert these axles to disks.

The use of 24 spline axles is all a question of why you need to change them??

If you are going through diffs, then it may be a good idea + look at diff pinning at the same time or a limited slip differential (LSD).

If you want disk brakes then again it may be a quick + cheap route, note you may need to change the brake bias valve (PCV = Proportional Control Valve) as this would mean that the vehicle brake dynamics will be very similar to what LR did with the newer vehicles.  I think you will need to source a PCV / bias valve off a similar vehicle (i.e. off a 110 or 90 if that is the vehicle you are putting the axle on) because the braking weights are different.  If you leave the drum brake PCV then I think your braking will be affected.

Please note, all of the above may just be my ramblings.... do as you see fit, and I am sure that I may have got something wrong in the above explanation.



the 24 spline diffs dont all have 4 pins in them 95% of them have a 2pin setup same as the 10spline diffs,

the 24 vs 10 spline debate will no doubt go on forever more but i believe ashcroft proved some time ago that there is no  significant strength difference between them

in regards to the drive members the earlyer axles (mostly 10 spline) had thicker drive members, the later (24 spline) had thinner ones which i believe was to do with the fitment of alloy wheels, n the rear axles of the discoverys late 200 & 300 they had 1 piece 1/2 shafts with integrated drive flanges, this i also believe is to do with the ease of manufacture & fitting alloy wheels,



in regards to the original posters question, its a straight bolt on job to fit the disc braked axle, just remember to tell your insurance company about your modifications
Started out with nothing,
Still have most of it left

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stage recovery

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Re: Splines?
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 10:17:27 PM »
Gary, remove drum brake axle, replace with disco 300 axle, swop 3 bolt input flange if fitted for rubber doughnut  for 4 bolt flange, bleed brakes. Worked for me and probably hundreds more!

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GWtaylor

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  • Name: Gary Taylor
Re: Splines?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 10:03:48 PM »
Plan on doing the conversion but a friend just chucked a spammer in the works that I will rear the front diff/axle as well due to the ratio being different?

I'm only swapping axles as it's there cheap and wouldnt mind disks on the rear


Thanks for all the advice team


Gary

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Sooty

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  • Name: mike robertson
Re: Splines?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 10:06:32 PM »
Plan on doing the conversion but a friend just chucked a spammer in the works that I will rear the front diff/axle as well due to the ratio being different?

I'm only swapping axles as it's there cheap and wouldnt mind disks on the rear


Thanks for all the advice team


Gary

the diff ratios are the same so no need to worry about that,
Started out with nothing,
Still have most of it left