thoughts?

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badger12

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thoughts?
« on: October 23, 2010, 04:14:58 PM »
Adverse effects of biofuels on classic car fuel systems
V8 Register ? MG Car Club www.v8register.net Copyright of the Times is acknowledged
Greener fuels will add to cost of motoring, oil companies say
Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent
The Times 16th April 2009
The cost of motoring will rise under a European Union plan to force oil companies to add more biofuel to
petrol and diesel, the industry has claimed. An analysis by the UK Petroleum Industry Association said that
drivers of cars built before 2000 would be worst hit because they may have to buy a more expensive type of
fuel to avoid damaging their engines. All drivers will have to fill up more often because biofuels produce
fewer miles per gallon.
The Government is also removing the fuel duty discount for biofuel from next year and this is expected to
add about 2p a litre to pump prices. Oil companies have had to spend more than ?100 million in the past
year on adapting refineries and storage facilities to cope with biofuels. The costs of complying with the EU
directive will increase sharply over the next five years and most of the cost will be passed on to drivers.
Biofuel made from crops such as soya, oilseed rape and palm will, in theory, reduce greenhouse gas
emissions because the plants absorb carbon as they grow. However, a Friends of the Earth report this week
said that biofuels could increase emissions because forests were being cut down to clear land for crops. The
association said that it was planning a publicity campaign next year to educate drivers about the risks of
using biofuels. It said that manufacturers? warranties could be invalidated if drivers bought petrol or diesel
with more than 5 per cent biofuel.
Presently, diesel contains about 5 per cent biofuel and petrol 1 per cent. Fuel retailers do not have to reveal
the biofuel content if it is 5 per cent or less. Lack of information means many drivers do not realise that they
already have some biofuel in their tanks. The association said that 2.7 per cent of fuel sold at the pumps last
year was biofuel, slightly more than the Government?s target for 2008-09 of 2.5 per cent. Last summer Britain
responded to concerns about sustainability by reducing the rate of increase of biofuel consumption in road
transport. But all EU countries must comply with a directive requiring 13 per cent of fuel to be biofuel by
2020. The association said that a new EU standard allowing 10 per cent of petrol to be biofuel would be
introduced next year. Malcolm Watson, its technical director, said that drivers of older cars would have to buy
?super unleaded?, a higher octane fuel that costs about 6p more per litre, or ?3.60 extra to fill a 60-litre tank.
He said that oil companies were planning to increase the biofuel content of ordinary unleaded to 10 per cent
while keeping super unleaded at a maximum of 5 per cent. Mr Watson said that new cars had fuel systems
able to cope with higher levels of biofuel but there could be problems with older cars.
The AA said that ethanol, the biofuel added to petrol, could perish rubber seals, corrode metal components
and block filters. It said the first sign of a problem would be the engine spluttering, possibly followed by a
complete loss of power. Paul Watters, its head of transport policy, said: ?Government and industry have
failed to explain how much extra people will have to pay and what the risks are to their cars. We would urge
drivers even now to look at the vehicle log books and check on fuel specifications.?

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georgew

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Re: thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2010, 04:37:04 PM »
Really feeling old now,
 seems only yesterday that we heard the same when unleaded came in.

Lots of magazine articles on changing heads & buying lead additive.
Valve seats wouldnt last etc.
Funny how some people just never bothered, said they would
rebuild the engine if there was a problem
 & they are still running those vehicles today on the current unleaded.

The article seems to be getting classic
& older engines mixed up,
how old to them is old,
 is it even pre cat days?

I can buy an old car with an MOT & some juice in the tank just now
for less than filling up a tank of fuel on some vehicles.
george
No need to be stuck for long.
www.recce-gear.co.uk

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Tim

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  • Carbon has a footprint but it has no feet.........
Re: thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2010, 05:12:03 PM »
In the first few pages of the owner's manual of every new Land Rover there is a dire warning about voiding the engine warranty if fuel containing more than 5% biofuel is used! So it isn't just "old" engines that have problems, my 6 months old 3.6TDv8 Range Rover cannot handle it either (well it probably can but if LR says I void the warranty then I won't be burning diesel with more than 5% biofuel for another 2.5 years)
On my drive now - Zanzibar Bronze Evoque 5 door Dynamic Lux Plus with Intelligence & Black Packs with Tan interior
Gone - Fuji White RR Evoque Coupe Dynamic Lux Plus
Staying - 1996 Epsom Green TDi 300 CHT that is now a CSW

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coolcamper55

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Re: thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2010, 08:09:58 PM »
The notices on the pumps in Tesco and Morrisons state that the deisel contains 7% Bio Fuel, so how does that place your warranty?

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sthrifty

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Re: thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2010, 08:38:13 PM »
They state up 7% so it could be a lot less we are only consumers do  we deserve the detail
1995 300 tdi csw 110
series 3 109 2.25p
ex mil 1986 90 s/t 2.5na
88on galv chassis needs rebuild and more
Disco m reg 2l mpi
[/

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genem

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  • I'm not completely daft. Some pieces are missing.
  • Name: Gene Maxwell
Re: thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2010, 09:07:59 PM »
...and at the other end of the spectrum there are plenty of sites on the web with owners who have run older LR diesels on straight veg oil or home-made bio-d with little or no ill effect.

Ironic that the "clean" engines are the ones that cannot run on "ecological" fuel. ( See also arguments about using food crops to make fuel etc etc.)
Not a simple subject !
If its not broken you are not trying hard enough....

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Tim

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  • Carbon has a footprint but it has no feet.........
Re: thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2010, 11:22:26 PM »
I don't buy supermarket fuels any more, that's how I get round that!
On my drive now - Zanzibar Bronze Evoque 5 door Dynamic Lux Plus with Intelligence & Black Packs with Tan interior
Gone - Fuji White RR Evoque Coupe Dynamic Lux Plus
Staying - 1996 Epsom Green TDi 300 CHT that is now a CSW

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jumbo

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  • drive through car wash landrover style
    • photo bucket
Re: thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2010, 11:52:24 PM »
handbook states freelander td4 engine is not compatible with bio diesel.....just how much percentage is it before its regarded as 'bio-diesel'

remember rudolph diesel originally planned to run his engines on coal dust or peanut oil, maybe we are heading backwardsforwards to the original idea. we only started using mineral diesel because it was waste left over from petrol refining.

doug
2005 3door freelander td4
1986 90s/w with 200tdi


warning::: any jokes posted by myself come with a health warning!!!!!

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janderson41

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Re: thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2010, 05:29:02 PM »
I normally use Shell in my Discovery 1996 300Tdi auto.Have used the new? Shell Fuelsave since introduction and on filling up on Friday noticed a small sticker on pump that Shell fuelsave contains up tp 7% bio deisel.
Will this harm older engines  and how many people look  at the pump away from the counters.Just noticed it by chance.How many thousand new vehicles are using Shell Fuelsave with all the advertising going on.
And how  can Landrover tell which fuel you use.

Jim Anderson
Discovery 1996 300Tdi auto(Jap reimport)
Jim A
2002 Disco 2 Td5 auto
1996 Disco 1 300Tdi auto (gone)

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sthrifty

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Re: thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2010, 05:52:58 PM »
Why dont we as a concerned club write to Land Rover for a definative answer on this
1995 300 tdi csw 110
series 3 109 2.25p
ex mil 1986 90 s/t 2.5na
88on galv chassis needs rebuild and more
Disco m reg 2l mpi
[/

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coolcamper55

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Re: thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2010, 07:00:36 PM »
Interesting reading re fuelsave, particular references to Freebies

http://www.mylocalvanhire.co.uk/vanblog/archives/1482/comment-page-2/#comment-993

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JD6920

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Re: thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2010, 02:15:43 PM »
Out here in America all the gas stations have petrol pumps that have what they call "super unleaded" this gas contains a minimum of 10% ethanol, my work pick-up is a 1999 GMC Sierra with a 5.3 V8 lump under the bonnet, I fill up with the super unleaded (as it's generally 30 cents cheaper than the standard unleaded, even though the farm pays for my fuel). I've never had any problems with power loss, clogged filters etc. The vehice is serviced regularly in the farm workshop, and we've never encountered any perished seals, corrosion etc. and the pick-up has 210,000 miles on it, most of which running on 10% ethanol fuel. We also now have 70% ethanol blender pumps, although only flexi-fuel engined vehicles are able to run on this.

I work on a 32,000 acre farm that grows soybeans and corn that go for ethanol production, well the corn does, what happens to the soybeans after they are sold I can't say.

And just on final note to really annoy people back home, we are currently paying $2.90 for a gallon of petrol, which when you do the maths means that in UK money it roughly equates to paying around 40p/50p a litre, I say roughly as I'm unsure of the current exchange rate, but I do know that we are getting shafted back home at the pump, ?1.25 a litre for diesel at some places I'm told! When will the people of Britain wake up to how much we are being robbed at the pump every day?
I Farm - You Eat