SLROC Forum
General Category => TECHNICAL CHAT => Topic started by: scottrnavy on May 18, 2011, 12:35:05 PM
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Just about to buy a Range rover classic V8 and would like to know if and is it worth getting LPG?
Thanks
Scott :D
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I would think it depends on how many miles you intend to do
& how long you are keeping the vehicle for.
A year or so it was a no brainer,
but the LPG prices are rising in a serious way.
At nearly ?6 a gallon for 'petrol' you might get 12-15 miles per gallon,
say ?60 for 150 miles max.
(7500 miles cost at least ?3000)
with 'LPG' @ 70 pence a litre
& getting 2 miles to the litre will give 20 miles for ?7.
?70 would give you around 200 miles.
(7500 miles cost around ?2625)
As well as the LPG cost,
you may well still be starting on petrol so factor that in..
It shouldnt effect your annual insurance costs.
The difference now is as a penny a litre goes on petrol,
it goes on gas these days, & you need around twice as many litres of LPG.
Also worth considering is if the engine is sound
& worth fitting a LPG conversion to.
Second hand system for a few hundred pounds
& maybe require a Certificate from a fitter if your insurance require, (check that out with your insurance company)
or
get a new system fitted professionally. over ?1000 possibly.
http://www.wellsidemotors.co.uk
handy for a quick check on your local LPG prices.
www.petrolprices.com
george
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Will keep the car for a few year with a mileage of about 10 to 12000. The age of the car is 89 and is good and sound.
Thanks for that.
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At that mileage I would say it is worth fitting one. Get a DIY kit from Tinley Tech, fit it all and get a specialist to certify it. You only need a single point kit and a sensible upgrade is using a BLOS lpg carb instead of mixers on the intake.
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a well tuned v8 can give up to 21-22 mpg consistently at least mine did with 133,000 miles on it
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I'd not bother - for the amount of miles and the cost of conversion you'll not regain the money any time soon. plus LPG will burn the valves of a rover V8
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I'd not bother - for the amount of miles and the cost of conversion you'll not regain the money any time soon. plus LPG will burn the valves of a rover V8
Since when?
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180,000 on an H plate Discovery 3.5i with LPG and still had the original valves. I would recomend LPG to anyone doing 10k plus per annum and holding onto their vehicle for a few years.
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I'd say the only downside with lpg in a Range Rover classic is the space taken up with the tank. To give you a decent size of tank, it would take up half your loadspace and do away with the advantage of folding the rear seats down.
Quite alarming, George, filling a certain 110 from near empty especially as it has a 200L and a 90L tank :o
I'd go for lpg, Scott.
Geoff :)
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;)
Probably why you maybe 'used' to see Military Show vehicles on gas running up farm roads to places with LPG powered grain dryers,
before taking a long run someplace. (with their 400 litre capacity tanks)
Obviously not to be condoned.
george
EDIT ps,
for any one heading the way of some 4x4 events with big tanks,
the cheapest pump price i know is still Kilmarknock, A71 (Spar/BP) & the price gets cheaper next time when they stamp you loyalty card.
www.petrolprices.com
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If you haven't bought the rangie yet, then it will be much cheaper to find one with lpg already fitted. They're more common than you might think - I found my lpg defender in Glasgow.
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How can a Range Rover return 22 mpg when My disco (and other people I speak to) only returns 16 mpg?
Both vehicles use the same gearbox, axles and diff ratios and the RR is probably half a ton heavier.
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How can a Range Rover return 22 mpg when My disco (and other people I speak to) only returns 16 mpg?
Both vehicles use the same gearbox, axles and diff ratios and the RR is probably half a ton heavier.
Other way round, the Disco is heavier because of the extra steel to give strength to the higher roof.
It is very possible to get 22 mpg, the RV8 is strangled by the stock induction and exhaust systems as well as pretty poor flowing heads. The more power released the better the mpg. Mine will struggle to do more than 17/18 on LPG because of the power limitations of the 3.5, a 3.9 or bigger can do over 20mpg no problem. That said I could probably get close when the Piper cam, standard thickness head gaskets (heads are skimmed) and ignition gizmo get fitted ::) Well we can dream eh? :P
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re weights.
There are lots of printed Specs & given weights unladen for early RR's & Discovery's.
UK & USA spec. are very different weights.
Basically they are around about for a Discovery 1989-1998
TDi 2080kg,
V8 2060kg,
V8cat 2060kg,
some charts show a Disco @ around 2012 kg unladen
& a RR Classic 1994-1995 @ 2011kg
A 1994 Range Rover 4.6 HSE has or had a actual kerb weight of 2220kg
The thing you can be sure of is the Discovery getting lighter quicker as it rusts away sooner.
george
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since always
I'd not bother - for the amount of miles and the cost of conversion you'll not regain the money any time soon. plus LPG will burn the valves of a rover V8
Since when?
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POHA,
is this knowledge gained from the experience you have had yourself running a V8 on LPG?
How many miles were you covering before there were problems & on which engine or engines?
george
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POHA,
is this knowledge gained from the experience you have had yourself running a V8 on LPG?
How many miles were you covering before there were problems & on which engine or engines?
george
Must echo this question.
There is no reason for an RV8 that is set up correctly to burn valves. If running very very lean (which is difficult if it is to run at all!) then it could get hot enough to do it but it is more likely to melt a piston first.
I know of many RV8's on lpg with at least a collective mileage of several hundred thousand.
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since always
I'd not bother - for the amount of miles and the cost of conversion you'll not regain the money any time soon. plus LPG will burn the valves of a rover V8
Since when?
::) Rubbish. Fitted correctly and more importantly, set up correctly, LPG on a Rover V8 is actually better for the engine not worse. I've fitted plenty, drove many and know several people who still run them as road cars approaching 200K on the clocks now. As long as it's serviced (both LPG and normal servicing) at 8k it will continue to run well until (or even after as it's such a forgiving engine) the camshaft wears out!
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Well that explains why a 130 bhp Rover 75 kicks my Disco' ass.
I thought a disco was 1.7 tons (its in the Land Rover hand book as that)
Drew.
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RPi Engineering, who are the guru's when it comes to Rover V8's, fit LPG to their engines.
Lots of info here:
http://www.v8engines.com/
Geoff :)
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RPi Engineering, who are the guru's when it comes to Rover V8's, fit LPG to their engines.
Lots of info here:
http://www.v8engines.com/
Geoff :)
cough erm yeah, right ::) Sorry don't rate RPi at all, I know they have built some good engines but there is a lot of fluff on their site. They are happy to sell you lots of trick bits and charge lots of money, plus if you have a problem with anything they have sold you they are not interested.
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cough erm yeah, right ::) Sorry don't rate RPi at all, I know they have built some good engines but there is a lot of fluff on their site. They are happy to sell you lots of trick bits and charge lots of money, plus if you have a problem with anything they have sold you they are not interested.
I have never heard anyone slag off RPi as you do. I therefore wander if you have ever dealt with them personally. Chris Crane and his wife are two of the most helpful people you could deal with. I have always had replies from them for any questions I have regarding the RPi engine I have, and I didn't even buy it from them. They are true enthusiasts and professionals.
Geoff :)
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Steve they are wonderful to deal with IME & IMO.
'Chris' has been building & dealing in V8's since the days he got involved with the first SD1's.
He will do anything to help.
Prepared to spend valuably time to help without there being a sale at the end of it.
The office staff are just amazing in going the extra mile to help in anyway.
Customers all over the world receive a great service & are repeat customers.
Many fly in to choose their engine build
& drive demonstrators & receive hospitality even if they
decided not to be a customer.
I have meet some past & present customers & never heard a complaint.
(read some comments online from people but dont ever hear what there actual bad experience was,
so must wonder if they heard stories from others.)
There are expensive parts available if you choose to buy,
(lots of Morgan owners are customers)
& parts that are as competitive as you will find anywhere else, if not cheaper.
george
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Not meaning to start an argument but yes I have dealt with them before. Had running problems about 5 years ago and I got a long and lengthy sales pitch from someone at RPi on the benefits of Magnecor leads and why a RV8 cannot possibly run well without them. Then why I must have an RPi power amp to run on LPG and only then would they be interested in helping cure my misfire >:( TBH within 10seconds flat I was getting talked to like I had no idea what was fitted to the car and that the person on the other end knew more about the problem having not looked at or heard the engine running!
Fact is that ultimately the rocker arms and cam were knackered and all those bits would have not made one jot of difference. Not saying for a minute that they are not capable of good things, however my experience and that of several others I know are of vastly overpriced products and no help at all when you have a problem with things you buy from them.
I know of 3 people who have bought followers from RPi (usually as cam kits) and when starting the engine up they rattle and tap like crazy, phone up RPi and get told "oh no it's nothing to do with what we've supplied" and the phone gets put down on you. They would not admit to having quality issues with parts and getting a refund was like pulling teeth.
So personally I am not really a fan!
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Thats kind of why in my first post in reply to the OP,
i mentioned the need for a 'sound engine', before fitting LPG.
Sellers & suppliers cant do much about the stuff they supply which suits a certain job,
which is usually a correctly operating engine.
IMHO If something is running like a bag of nails its not worth upgrading
& tuning untill its maintained & running to an expected level of standard performance.
ie You cant really blame a company for being unaware your 'rocker arms & cams were knackered'.
Seems to me they were fair in thinking it was a 'sound engine' you were asking about the parts for.
george
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Thats kind of why in my first post in reply to the OP,
i mentioned the need for a 'sound engine', before fitting LPG.
Sellers & suppliers cant do much about the stuff they supply which suits a certain job,
which is usually a correctly operating engine.
IMHO If something is running like a bag of nails its not worth upgrading
& tuning untill its maintained & running to an expected level of standard performance.
ie You cant really blame a company for being unaware your 'rocker arms & cams were knackered'.
Seems to me they were fair in thinking it was a 'sound engine' you were asking about the parts for.
george
Except when they were explicitely told that it had new and good condition genuine LR ignition leads cap and rotor arm.
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I have LPG on my 110 V8 and I'll not use it. LPG does not cool the cylinder like petrol does so can get very hot. the jag based 4.4 V8 is also particularly bad for problems if run on LPG. its is not an instant problem but one that builds up over time. the problem will be made worse with poor ignition and timing.
POHA,
is this knowledge gained from the experience you have had yourself running a V8 on LPG?
How many miles were you covering before there were problems & on which engine or engines?
george
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oh dear
RPi Engineering, who are the guru's when it comes to Rover V8's, fit LPG to their engines.
Lots of info here:
http://www.v8engines.com/
Geoff :)
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Sorry but totally confused now by the revelation that petrol acts as a coolant,
but thats my normal state.
I am happy that the combustion happens with petrol or gas or ethenol or even nitros when the piston is up
& there is compression & combustion.
oil & coolant circulating in the block is all the cooling that i have ever needed.
I have never run LPG on an air cooled engine.
You are correct on poor ignition & timing making things worse,
but then you need to be pretty stupid to run poor ignition & timing i would think.
Off to strip out my Gas conversion now,
after the words of wisdom, thanks POHA.
george
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why do you think turbo charged cars run richer than N/A cars
Sorry but totally confused now by the revelation that petrol acts as a coolant,
but thats my normal state.
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www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine_cooling.
You are right of course,
but since its only a Toyota i have now & not a LR it all works fine when installed properly,
i think i will just keep on with what works well for me & many others.
george
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appears to work ok ;)
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine_cooling.
You are right of course,
but since its only a Land Rover & it all works fine when installed properly,
i think i will just keep on with what works well for me & many others.
george
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;)
You are right again,
'only appears to work OK'.
I will just have to wait for it all to got Bang.
cheers for the help.
george
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it might not during your ownership
;)
You are right again,
'only appears to work OK'.
I will just have to wait for it all to got Bang.
cheers for the help.
george
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You need to read a bit more possibly.
You seem to be mixing up LPG running dryer than petrol.
The Morgan racers & others are running LPG not only for the weight benefit but also the Lower calorific value of LPG means its only 85% of petrol & actually runs cooler.
Plugs do get hotter tho.
My 4.7 is just fine because its built for LPG, & doesnt run petrol.
My 4.6 was also built suitable for running just gas.
I have 'flash lub' on my 5.2 tvr engine because it runs standard heads.
Never had a problem with it & its done lots of fast runs in several different vehicles.
No valve recession
or other such problems you have maybe been told about.
I think i have covered enough miles in LPG vehicles to be satisfied that it works for me.
Then i just do like NIKE says,
this seems to work just fine.
george
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don't have to read up more, I know what can happen. some people are fine with using LPG others are not. I'm not telling you not to use it and would never do such a thing. All I am point out is LPG can cause problems with the rover V8 which is a well known fact.
no idea what you mean by LPG running dryer than petrol
You need to read a bit more possibly.
You seem to be mixing up LPG running dryer than petrol.
The Morgan racers & others are running LPG not only for the weight benefit but also the Lower calorific value of LPG means its only 85% of petrol & actually runs cooler.
Plugs do get hotter tho.
My 4.7 is just fine because its built for LPG, & doesnt run petrol.
My 4.6 was also built suitable for running just gas.
I have 'flash lub' on my 5.2 tvr engine because it runs standard heads.
Never had a problem with it & its done lots of fast runs in several different vehicles.
No valve recession
or other such problems you have maybe been told about.
I think i have covered enough miles in LPG vehicles to be satisfied that it works for me.
Then i just do like NIKE says,
this seems to work just fine.
george
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POHA,
Just been reading the post on Landyzone from you on the same subject.
Then spotted your 110 in 'trackscotland', it looks nice & makes a very very nice sound.
george
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Hi George
google POAH did we ;)
Ross
POHA,
Just been reading the post on Landyzone from you on the same subject.
Then spotted your 110 in 'trackscotland', it looks nice & makes a very very nice sound.
george